Does Valorant Have It’s Own GOATS Problem │ VALORANTyoutubeまとめサイト

【視聴数　43638】

【チャンネル名　Thinking Man’s Valorant】

【タグ　Valorant,Pros,Guides,Guide,Ranked,Ladder,FPS,Shooter,Riot,Tips,Tricks,Tips & Tricks,Pro,Vod,Review,VCT,Team,Thinking,Game,Sense,Gamesense,VOD,Learn,Gain,Analysis,Brain,Understand,Win,Ability,Grow,Value,Think,Man,Valo,Highlight,Highlights,Fun,New,TMV,Overwatch,Goats,Intiator】

コメント（142件）

OrcPlays より:

11月 1, 2022 12:54 am

Valorant exists in a fragile space between overwatch and cs. In order to balance the game you have to decide what you want to prioritize. Gunplay and aim skill. Or planning ability usage and strategy. So long as they stay in between these two initiators are going to be strong since they are a good balance of both.

返信
ShadyProductionsMC より:

11月 1, 2022 12:57 am

the main issue here is that sova isn’t a 100% pickrate on every map

返信
CyanMarker より:

11月 1, 2022 1:13 am

Personally, I think that it is mainly a matter of coverage. Generally, having just one controller and one sentinel on most maps will reserve you the map control you need from those agent types. A single controller is enough to protect your team from extra sightlines while trying to secure a site and a single sentinel is generally enough to cover your flank. Even if their coverage isn’t perfect on every map, it may be too redundant to have an extra sentinel to cover one more flank route for example when one alone can already divert the enemy from the more likely route and another trip might have no value most rounds if the enemy rarely flanks anyway. But, I think that it will be hard for an initiator to fully replace sentinels because even though you can reclear your flank using information abilities, they would have to expend most of their utility if they want to keep checking up on their rear throughout a round while sentinels would only need a single trip to keep watch of a certain route without a window in timing to get punished with. I find that defensively, team comps don’t seem matter as much since it is more about where you position your team members to be ready to take fights.
I think that having two initiators are more impactful because their job is taking space through information and utility (like stuns & blinds), and one could be enough for a site execute, however, they do not have enough utility to safely clear the rest of the map leading up to a site. It just seems like a team would benefit a lot from simply having a greater amount of utility to take map control. It seems true that the methods initiators take map control may vary, like through information or stuns/blinds and fall on a spectrum between these two methods, but I think that both methods compliment each other when taking map control since info can give a team an idea of where to “mini-execute” with the stuns and blinds so having enough of both makes gaining advantages easier.
It seems that the main distinction between duelists and initiators is that duelists have abilities that help them avoid being punished from overextending and peeking, but it can be pretty unreliable because many of them can still be killed before they retreat. Otherwise, their main appeal is their ability to aggressively use their movement abilities to break crossfires on choke points and cause a distraction/threat from a more exposed position while your team executes. Although I feel like it could be argued that two duelists could be useful for site executes, I feel like if the team’s timing is good enough, where the entire team enters the choke point simultaneously, having a 4-1 split would have nearly the same effect as a 3-2 split (split as in duelists are ahead of the team). Just from the top of my head, having 4 people grouped up ready to refrag off of each other seems hard to deal with when you are already worrying about another position. Having three people grouped up but with a bigger duelist distraction might have the same effect, especially when having another initiator would already make defending a site harder.
I think that this is pretty healthy overall. I think that initiators encourage more tactical and adaptive gameplay. Especially since controllers and sentinels are still fairly irreplaceable from initiators, so team comps will always have that kind of variety.
That being said, this was just me thinking out loud and I don’t even know if I’m right about anything

返信
Exarion より:

11月 1, 2022 1:20 am

split intitiators in two roles where you have a reveal and cc agent and boom there is no double initiator problem anymore… at least on paper but its still the same game. Thats why i dont think there is a double initiator problem. Im a cypher main btw whos setups always getting destoyed by some dogs and teammate raze dogs.

返信
NekoTheCat より:

11月 1, 2022 1:28 am

Initiators are the most fun and cool to play agents and have incredible impact with their abilities that’s how it is a d should be I think.

返信
Rafael Adelino より:

11月 1, 2022 1:33 am

What do you think about doing a tier list of the best agents considering their best state of all time

返信
Rivera より:

11月 1, 2022 1:46 am

Is that c9 Keeoh?

返信
Shokuou より:

11月 1, 2022 2:06 am

I feel like I can make my points quick.

my takes on this are:

I think it is actually healthy for the game.

Initiatiors like Kayo and Skye can somewhat serve as a replacement for duellists (if we compare them to like phoenix or reyna)

Initiatiors generally are made to support their teammates which is why on the highest level, the perfection of their teamwork really just pushes these characters strength over the edge because a perfect timed kayo flash is probably gonna have more impact on a round than a perfectly placed/timed smoke

返信
Krizp より:

11月 1, 2022 2:12 am

Its not a problem, because it actually makes the game more fun with the chaos it brings unlike the boring tedious GOATS. And to be honest, if kj and cypher were actually viable then we would maybe see double sentinel on some maps with kj or cypher and then chamber. Or maybe even triple with icebox (because sage is a necessity)

返信
Wiratama より:

11月 1, 2022 4:36 am

initiators are good now wtf?

返信
rykee Rodriguez より:

11月 1, 2022 6:13 am

Pretty sure in a tac shooter info and executes are king so initiators are always going to be good. If anything the fact that the initiators and controllers, both essential classes, have a healthy balance in the usable tiers means riot has done a good job with their sweeping class change patches. Can’t wait for sentinels’

返信
rykee Rodriguez より:

11月 1, 2022 6:22 am

From how you described it the easiest way to nerf initiators as a class is to increase the cooldown on their default skills or limit them to 2 or 3 recharge slots kind of how they do to Astra stars. It would really slow down the game even more though which might not be fun for players or spectators
Riot has a philosophy for how they want the game played which is why sova had no nerfs for so long

返信
rykee Rodriguez より:

11月 1, 2022 6:33 am

Was watching this and waw Chamber basically alone in S tier. My solution: when he moves while in his tp range he puts his gun down. This way he’s forced to play like a turret. He can’t be as aggressive without some setup to get him into position. Either a Jett smoke or a flash or someone swinging with him. So he moves with his gun down then pulls it out once he’s standing. It can be a fast pullout if you want or an ordinary one so that you basically encourage people to peek using his pistol/awp because of their faster pullouts. Just a thought 😉

返信
Blueberryelf より:

11月 1, 2022 7:14 am

Stop! Stop! Please stop calling any meta you don’t like in any game ever goats please!!!!

返信
where am i より:

11月 1, 2022 7:38 am

In a way, it’s probably a good sign that initiators are so powerful because it means that they are being used properly and to their full extent by pro players.

It’s probably the concept of defense that needs to be made more viable.

Consider retakes – defending a site seems less viable when site executes are so effective, and you can just attack the site yourself after the spike plant anyway. Some matches, often on Fracture, consist of both teams essentially taking turns to attack each other, without really much straightforward defense going on. Deliberately playing retake, or aggression on the defending side, depending on the map, is now commonplace. So, when attacking becomes the bread and butter of gameplay in Valorant, initiators end up holding more value than other agent types.

I think I’d like to see changes to sentinels, or even an entirely new sentinel agent, that serves to counter or weaken initiator abilities somehow. Maybe something that reduces the effectiveness of recon abilities, or gives resistance to specific debuffs, or something along those lines. Like a Brimstone stim but a defensive buff instead of offense.

返信
Vivek Bure より:

11月 1, 2022 7:51 am

It’s not very surprising, considering information is the most crucial part of a tactical shooter at a pro level. Initiators fill that role in this game and will be the most important class for the reason.

返信
Banan より:

11月 1, 2022 7:57 am

I think one reason Initiators are so strong is they have the best utils generally and their utils have the lowest diminishing returns. What I mean by that is that Initiator abilities are things you can never have too much off, since they’re mostly either flashes or info gathering abilities. Compare that to other classes, Controllers sometimes get played as double Controllers but not as much (mostly only Bind nowadays) because a lot of times a single Controller is enough, you don’t need a lot of smokes. Same with Sentinels and their flank watch, you only need one agent to do that job. As for duelists, the only relevant ones right now are the mobility duelists, and again one is enough, the flashing duelists are overshadowed by the initiators.

返信
XrEz139 より:

11月 1, 2022 9:15 am

Initiator is the hardest to play so the tradeoff is worth it

返信
Kodub より:

11月 1, 2022 9:35 am

I think it’s more of a symptom that a ‘disease’ — I think a lot of pro comps need two initiators because Chamber is so good. He needs to be accounted for with free utility if possible, and also needs to be used, which weakens the viability of more passive info-based agents in Cypher and Killjoy.

Another issue is that some comps are zero-duelist comps with very little space making ability and can be subjectively boring or frustrating to watch. This isn’t a big deal to me but tbh I do want to see a duelist agent carry rounds by be duelish lol.

Overall I feel like duelists should be considered by rito for rechargeable E utility or find ways to increase the utility overall of the other classes.

返信
Jose Valdez より:

11月 1, 2022 9:55 am

i feel like something that wasnt mentioned is the role that initiators play in the game. They gather intel, some of them in more than one way too. Fade’s kit gathers intel with every ability, even her snare can clear very tight corners if needed. Only sova’s shocks dont get intel, sky’s whole kit besides healing gathers intel, kayo and breach are unique in that kayo only has one intel gathering ability but it is the most powerful imo (you know how many, who they are, and that they cant util you) and breach is so far removed from the initiator role that they are played quite differently than any other initator.

anyway, this role of gathering information itself is probably the crux of the issue since in this game, knowledge is so powerful. if you know mid is clear, that is so much space you can just take. if you know 3 are on one site, you know the other two are likely on the other. this knowledge is free, you dont have to sacrifice a body, or even econ in some cases.

still quite aptly put though, it;s unclear if this is even a BAD thing. and except in the most intense lobbies and in pro play, every agent is viable on any map.

返信